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anon

"Rabba Yochanan said, "like an innocent calf [follows it's mother]."

This bit regarding motherhood is a mistake. It reads k'hada eglasa t'mimasa - either this means like a perfect circle (i.e. continuity of bas kuf k'vas chof etc) or like this innocent calf, i.e a sign of beauty (egla yefeyfia mitzrayim). The midrash is relating to the previous one regarding bas kof k'vas chof etc.

"Second, Rabbi Yochanan uses the same language and imagery in discussing the relationship and role of Sarah and Rivka as Rabbi Abba applied to prophets, military
leaders and Talmudic sages. This analogy portrays Sarah and Rivka as leaders and teachers of Torah, two great suns as well."

R Yochanan is not saying that they are leaders - the midrash is speaking of tzaddikim. The analogy is only that the same principle of continuity (the next is present before the first dies) holds true for the mothers of the Jewish people. You are reading too much into it.

anon

"First, Rabbi Yochanan compares the relationship between the student and his/her mentor to an innocent calf following it's mother. This highlights the importance of mentorship, comparing the teacher-student relationship to that of a mother and child."

No, the calf is not a symbol of mentorship or of motherhood - just of continuity.

(K'hada eglasa tmimasa is also probably misplaced, and was possibly in the preceding midrash, as a comment on sarah's beauty).

Karen

Dear "anon,"

Thanks for your comments.
1. I the idea of a young calf "follows it's mother" comes from one of the mefarshim. So you are disagreeing with a commentary not me. IN fact, the Theodor-Albeck notes on Bereshit rabba give a slightly alternative reading - like an innocent calf follows the voice of it's master. Perhaps you are reading too much in to it when you say it means beauty (that has nothing to do with this midrash!) or a perfect circle.
Moreover, there is a lot of scholarly literature which discusses the redaction of Bereshit Rabba. Just because the same word appears in two midrashim next to each other, does not mean that they are necessarily related.

2. You say: "K'hada eglasa tmimasa is also probably misplaced, and was possibly in the preceding midrash, as a comment on sarah's beauty."

Not sure why a calf has anything to do with her beauty. The context here has nothing to do with that, neither R Yochanan's statement, nor R. Abba's.

3. You also say "No, the calf is not a symbol of mentorship or of motherhood - just of continuity." How exactly is the calf an example of continuity if the midrash is not talking about a calf following it's mother?
4. I am only pointing out that the juxtaposition of the sarah-rivka relationship with that of Moshe-Joshua and Rabbi Akiva-Rebbe and others, groups them together with a long list of national leaders and teachers of Torah.
5. Finally, feel free to disagree, but please do so in a respectful way. As I have said several times b/f, I try to keep the tone of my blog cordial. I find that if one actually publishes comments in their own name, rather than anonymously, they tend to be a LOT more careful about what they say and how they say it.

anon

1. I am probably disagreeing with a commentary. "Perhaps you are reading too much in to it when you say it means beauty (that has nothing to do with this midrash!) or a perfect circle." Perfect circle is a direct translation; that translation either is or isn't correct. The reference to beauty is because - and this is the main point I was making - this midrash follows on the previous one and needs to be read in context (whatever the commentary says!). By beauty I don't only mean to refer to physical beauty - I meant spiritual as well, as per the previous midrash (58:1)- the key word here is "tmimasa" and the reference is to the perfection of sarah's life.

"Moreover, there is a lot of scholarly literature which discusses the redaction of Bereshit Rabba. Just because the same word appears in two midrashim next to each other, does not mean that they are necessarily related."

I in fact posited that this phrase is in fact transposed from the previous midrash (58:1) and was not meant to be connected to v'zorach hashemesh at all.

2. See above - the context is the previous midrash.
3."How exactly is the calf an example of continuity if the midrash is not talking about a calf following it's mother?" If the translation is circle, then it's obviously a symbol of continuity. If it's calf, the notion is tmimasa, perfection, and the continuity of perfection or flawlessness.
4. "I am only pointing out that the juxtaposition.. groups them together with a long list of national leaders and teachers of Torah."

Right. This juxtaposition leaps out at first blush, but such juxtapositions are frequent in midrash when only one point of commonality is being asserted - in this case, it's continuity and tzidkus.

5. I am sorry if I offended you in some way or you found my comment disrespectful. I doubt anonymity has much to do with this however! Perhaps the style of the beis midrash is not suitable for blogs, even when discussing torah. No offense was intended.


Karen

Dear Anon,

First, I accept your apology and can hear your comments much better this way.

I hear what you are saying about the word temimut being transported and I think this is very interesting. I just don't understand why it would be transported as the phrase "kehada eglata temimata." It seems to me to be making a different point, whatever that point is.

However, you have prompted me to look for parallels which may help us learn more about this phrase and this midrash.
1. It turns out that the phrase kehada eglata is used in a slightly different yet related midrash about Shmuel and Eli. It has nothing to do with Rivka and Sarah, but the meaning is a little clearer there. It is found in Midrash Shmuel chapter 9 and it says: "And Hashem called to Shmuel and he said Hineni... and he ran to Eli and said hinenei (here I am) because you have called me. Rabbi Yochanan says, 'kehada eglata temimata.' So the meaning from here really is about a master-servant, teacher-student relationship.
2. There are parallels to the entire midrash in Kohelet Rabbah 1:1 which includes Sara and Rivka in the list, but don't have R Yochanan and don't have eglata temimata.

And so, I thank you for keeping me on my toes and pushing me to be clearer. Thanks to your points I will actually remove the mother thing from the post since I think the peshat of the midrash (if you can apply such a term) is as an innocent calf follows it's master. Sorry I still disagree about the circle thing, there seems no evidence to support that reading.

Finally, I still stand by the main point of my dvar Torah. Whether it is because they are great teachers or tzadkaniyot, they are grouped among a higly regarded list of men and that, in and of itself, is pretty cool if you ask me.

I appreciate your comments and follow-up. I am glad I have such sophisticated readers.


anon

I got "The circle thing" from the classical meforshim (the maharzu reads it that way) - it wouldn't have been my reading.

"I just don't understand why it would be transported as the phrase "kehada eglata temimata."

The entire phrase appears in the previous midrash (58:1). Yodeya hashem y'mey t'mimim, zu sarah she'haya t'mima b'ma'aseha, omar r yochana k'hada eglasa t'mimasa.

I don't have a midrash shmuel here, but looking again at breishis rabbah, I see that you don't have to rely on me for the notion that the phrase is extraneous/mistakenly transposed to 58:2 - the y'dey moshe says this, and the yefeh toar also points out the duplication (but points to midrash shmuel as well where the phrase also appears). I don't know much about the provenance of midrash shmuel, and whether it is later than midrash rabbah, but my suspicion is that the entire phrase was mistakenly transposed into b"r 58:2, and copied from there into midrash shmuel (and yalkut).

The overall concept is sarah's perfection, as per the theme of b"r 58:1. However, I do find some support for your concept of the calf following the lead of its master in the comments of the radal, who sees sarah as following avraham's lead when he requested her to identify herself as his sister.

anon

"Finally, I still stand by the main point of my dvar Torah. Whether it is because they are great teachers or tzadkaniyot, they are grouped among a higly regarded list of men and that, in and of itself, is pretty cool if you ask me."

Well that is unarguable :-) I thought you were making a distinction between teachers vs other leadership - but it's certainly true that the importance of the imahot is highlighted in this midrash (and many others, and in the torah itself!)

Karen

Dear Anon,

I think I now understand where some of the confusion is coming from. I have been using the Theodor Albeck edition of Bereshit Rabbah, which leaves out the eglata phrase in 58:1. I now see that you are using the VIlna edition which has this phrase in both 58:1 and 58:2. This is why I was originally confused by your argument that it was transposed.

I think that while it does seem to fit in the vilna midrash, it still fits best in the midrash shmuel version, where it means following it's master. If this is the original usage of this phrase, then it is more appropriate in 58:2, and this is why Theodor-Albeck omits it from 58:1.

In any case, this has been a great discussion, probably more interesting than original post! Thanks for all of your feedback and Shabbat Shalom.

anon

shabbat shalom!

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